Thanks for an engaging discussion today! I've been thinking more about the core question - is male privilege still a helpful concept? While I agree that individual males might not feel privileged, especially if they are economically or racially marginalized, I think that a framework of how patriarchy upholds privilege for cis-het males is overwhelmingly relevant and necessary. Women have barely started to make economic gains in this country and we are seeing our bodily rights being actively taken away. This is not unrelated. And it is definitely not unrelated to the patriarchal structure of our society. The fact that so many men (and women) were able to look away from Trump's many sexual misconducts and vote him back into office is a glaring sign of male privilege. Post-election analyses have been inundated with takes on how the Democrats alienated men, opinions which serve to, once again, center the needs of men. The so-called post-MeToo era was very short-lived. All of this is not to say that men and boys do not have unique disadvantages. But, these disadvantages are a necessary condition to the privileges granted to them by adhering to patriarchal standards. Separating the idea of male privilege from patriarchy does a disservice to both men and women. So I think to address the impossible standards of masculinity we need to start by recognizing the privileges for which this impossible standard was embraced for so long.
yes this is all so important to remember. I feel that it is possible to both acknowledge and remember how deeply true this is AND to acknowledge the very real harms/ disadvantages that men experience in this system to in relation to emotionality/ intimacy/ connection etc. But it's such a tough balance.
Yes! Patriarchy hurts men too, 100%. I think my concern with questioning the narrative of male privilege is that it can be a slippery slope and unintentionally play into the male victimhood narrative which is often weaponized against feminist movements. In my experience the loudest resistance against the male privilege narrative is men, but the ones doing the work to dismantle patriarchal structures hurting men's emotional wellbeing are often women. What I would really love to see is more men doing the hard work of unlearning internalized patriarchy and misogyny (and not leaning on women to do it for them), and that work involves grappling with uncomfortable truths.
Yes agree re playing into the male victimhood narrative - we need to be so cautious about that. There are some men doing great work in this field but agree - would love to see more.
Yes. Curiosly, now, after 40 years discriminating men, we have to have a rational conversation.
Now, suddently, we dont need to speak about privilege. Female privilege, of course, is the discussion to avoid.
How rational have became feminists fte the Kill All Men, or the toxic masculinity narrative...
Now, we dont have to speak about a Matriarchy in the US. Suddently, men can be diasdvantaged (ALL gender gaps are against young males in the US. ALL gender gaps).
Suddently, a bit of compassion. Before the 5th or the 6th wave of feminism?
Suddently, after Trump, the narrative changes.
Curiosly, we dont have to speak now about female privilege. Nor about toxic feminity. Not about Matriarchy.
No, suddently the conversation has to be quite and nobody has to be harmed.
Suddently, males can vote. And they have voted for Trump.
Suddently, people is concerned about males... Are they? Or aeenthey concerned about the blacklash?
What about starting a trending topig with "Kill All Women"? What about recognising that females have more bias gainst males that the other way around?
What about recognising that masculinity was about PROTECTING women (of course, not all men were following that) WHILE the new feminity is about DEFEATI NG males?
Why not recognising that males supported the majority of the bad outcomes when they were in power (e.g. work casualties, shortler life expectancy) but women want power without supporting the bad autocomes too?
What about recognising that ALL what has happened in the past 40 years (mainly, in the past 20 years, and is still going on) has been WRONG.
What about stoping stupid adds like the Super Bowl add by Nike?
What vout recognising that males are being discriminated at schools?
What about recognising that feminism has been more toxic to males that the 50 or 60 were for women.
What about recognising that males perfom much if the protection in this country (army, cops, firefigthers) and thanks males and masculinity for the contributons that women cannot and are not making?
Nothing of this will happen. This is just a stop before the 4th, 5th or 6th feminist wage because males have standed up and kick everybody in the ass by voting Trump.
You and the left are NOT concerned about males. But only about males votes.
Society has done a great effort in closing the gap from women to men, which was and is very necessary, but now is also time for designing policies for the opposite, closing the gap from men to women. But there is still resistance to give to soft skills the value that they deserve in our society and it's this believe that somehow they should be able to close the gap by themselves but it's obvious that's not working!
How come? If feminist has created a Matriarchy in the US.
This refognistion is that women, with plenty of Government helo and billions from lobbies, have managed to overopass men.
No, sorry, no. We dont want your pitty.
We want your revognition that you have tried to create a Matriarchy. The same you were complianing about IS what you have done.
We dont want just an impass before the 5th or 6th wave of feminism.
We want an apology and the recognition that feminism is a toxic ideology that has done as much harm as you were supposed to avoid.
I guess, It time to Talk about the female privilege and the toxic feminity.
But you know what? We dont want any of that from the feminists.
We will continue to vote for people like Trump that ends the DEI and other anti male rules. And hopefully, we will restablish the Patriarchy in a way that the feminist understand that discrimination like the past 40 years SHOULD HAVE NOT HAPPENED.
The worst of that is all this has happened because Trump won. If we had Kemala, feminism would continue to promote the toxic female agenda.
You just has to see the SuperBow toxic add by Nike. Females have learnt nothing from what has happened.
Thank you for paving the way to have these nuanced conversations that acknowledge “both, and.” This will help move us beyond the anger around this issue ❤️
Thanks for an engaging discussion today! I've been thinking more about the core question - is male privilege still a helpful concept? While I agree that individual males might not feel privileged, especially if they are economically or racially marginalized, I think that a framework of how patriarchy upholds privilege for cis-het males is overwhelmingly relevant and necessary. Women have barely started to make economic gains in this country and we are seeing our bodily rights being actively taken away. This is not unrelated. And it is definitely not unrelated to the patriarchal structure of our society. The fact that so many men (and women) were able to look away from Trump's many sexual misconducts and vote him back into office is a glaring sign of male privilege. Post-election analyses have been inundated with takes on how the Democrats alienated men, opinions which serve to, once again, center the needs of men. The so-called post-MeToo era was very short-lived. All of this is not to say that men and boys do not have unique disadvantages. But, these disadvantages are a necessary condition to the privileges granted to them by adhering to patriarchal standards. Separating the idea of male privilege from patriarchy does a disservice to both men and women. So I think to address the impossible standards of masculinity we need to start by recognizing the privileges for which this impossible standard was embraced for so long.
yes this is all so important to remember. I feel that it is possible to both acknowledge and remember how deeply true this is AND to acknowledge the very real harms/ disadvantages that men experience in this system to in relation to emotionality/ intimacy/ connection etc. But it's such a tough balance.
Yes! Patriarchy hurts men too, 100%. I think my concern with questioning the narrative of male privilege is that it can be a slippery slope and unintentionally play into the male victimhood narrative which is often weaponized against feminist movements. In my experience the loudest resistance against the male privilege narrative is men, but the ones doing the work to dismantle patriarchal structures hurting men's emotional wellbeing are often women. What I would really love to see is more men doing the hard work of unlearning internalized patriarchy and misogyny (and not leaning on women to do it for them), and that work involves grappling with uncomfortable truths.
Yes agree re playing into the male victimhood narrative - we need to be so cautious about that. There are some men doing great work in this field but agree - would love to see more.
Ah! Foiled again by timing! Will hope to join in in the new year. Happy hols!
sorry to miss you and hope to see you at the next one!
I’ll be there! If I can find the link. :-)
i just sent it in my latest post! So happy you can join!
Yes. Curiosly, now, after 40 years discriminating men, we have to have a rational conversation.
Now, suddently, we dont need to speak about privilege. Female privilege, of course, is the discussion to avoid.
How rational have became feminists fte the Kill All Men, or the toxic masculinity narrative...
Now, we dont have to speak about a Matriarchy in the US. Suddently, men can be diasdvantaged (ALL gender gaps are against young males in the US. ALL gender gaps).
Suddently, a bit of compassion. Before the 5th or the 6th wave of feminism?
Suddently, after Trump, the narrative changes.
Curiosly, we dont have to speak now about female privilege. Nor about toxic feminity. Not about Matriarchy.
No, suddently the conversation has to be quite and nobody has to be harmed.
Suddently, males can vote. And they have voted for Trump.
Suddently, people is concerned about males... Are they? Or aeenthey concerned about the blacklash?
What about starting a trending topig with "Kill All Women"? What about recognising that females have more bias gainst males that the other way around?
What about recognising that masculinity was about PROTECTING women (of course, not all men were following that) WHILE the new feminity is about DEFEATI NG males?
Why not recognising that males supported the majority of the bad outcomes when they were in power (e.g. work casualties, shortler life expectancy) but women want power without supporting the bad autocomes too?
What about recognising that ALL what has happened in the past 40 years (mainly, in the past 20 years, and is still going on) has been WRONG.
What about stoping stupid adds like the Super Bowl add by Nike?
What vout recognising that males are being discriminated at schools?
What about recognising that feminism has been more toxic to males that the 50 or 60 were for women.
What about recognising that males perfom much if the protection in this country (army, cops, firefigthers) and thanks males and masculinity for the contributons that women cannot and are not making?
Nothing of this will happen. This is just a stop before the 4th, 5th or 6th feminist wage because males have standed up and kick everybody in the ass by voting Trump.
You and the left are NOT concerned about males. But only about males votes.
Thanks but not thanks.
Society has done a great effort in closing the gap from women to men, which was and is very necessary, but now is also time for designing policies for the opposite, closing the gap from men to women. But there is still resistance to give to soft skills the value that they deserve in our society and it's this believe that somehow they should be able to close the gap by themselves but it's obvious that's not working!
How come? If feminist has created a Matriarchy in the US.
This refognistion is that women, with plenty of Government helo and billions from lobbies, have managed to overopass men.
No, sorry, no. We dont want your pitty.
We want your revognition that you have tried to create a Matriarchy. The same you were complianing about IS what you have done.
We dont want just an impass before the 5th or 6th wave of feminism.
We want an apology and the recognition that feminism is a toxic ideology that has done as much harm as you were supposed to avoid.
I guess, It time to Talk about the female privilege and the toxic feminity.
But you know what? We dont want any of that from the feminists.
We will continue to vote for people like Trump that ends the DEI and other anti male rules. And hopefully, we will restablish the Patriarchy in a way that the feminist understand that discrimination like the past 40 years SHOULD HAVE NOT HAPPENED.
The worst of that is all this has happened because Trump won. If we had Kemala, feminism would continue to promote the toxic female agenda.
You just has to see the SuperBow toxic add by Nike. Females have learnt nothing from what has happened.
Thank you for paving the way to have these nuanced conversations that acknowledge “both, and.” This will help move us beyond the anger around this issue ❤️
thank you so much!