I like/appreciate your comparison of the Madonna/whore binary for women w hero/villain for men. You're right: we all need leeway to be messy humans. And I agree that we need to continue to expand the 'box' for boys. I'm also starting to think that far more boys & men are living beyond the hero/villain binary than we may think. You write about how the male hero journey is typically solo, w super powers of some sort, & women as side characters, if at all -- and how absorbing such stories subconsciously affects boys & men. But as I wrote in this week's edition of Building Boys Bulletin, this Olympics has been packed with examples of men cheering for & supporting women (& one another). Our boys are growing up in a time in which males ARE supporting the female friends & partners -- at a time when doing so is *not rare -- and that's a massive departure from the Gen X, Boomer, or previous generations' experiences. Yes, some boys & men are taking in & living out extreme messages. Many more are doing a pretty great job of navigating a pretty complex world.
yes this is an excellent point- thanks for raising it. When I was interviewing boys for Boymom I was often impressed by how - often in the face of pretty limiting and sometimes harmful socialization- they were finding their own paths and ways to show up and support each other.
So many lovely stories like this, and you are right that the Olympics is a great example.
I want to state upfront that I definitely appreciate your overall sentiment.
However, as a <30 y/o "regular joe", I think you'd be commiting the exact mistake Ruth brings up in her article if you make the claim that men are "getting beyond the hero/villain binary", using true real-life superheroes as evidence of that. Yeah, of course Olympians are going to be supportive of their teammates - they're literally at the top of the world and have objective proof of their adequacy.
As a "regular joe", the Olympics just depresses me; I already feel inadequate - those real-life "superhumans" might as well be from the goddamn Moon - I don't think there's any daylight between them & I.
Don't even get me started about how depressing the everpresent chatter about the "massive amounts of sex" Olympians have, given our ability to charm women is the primary way men are taught to value themselves. For the huge population of men who literally cannot find any partners in a decade (I certainly haven't), talking about Olympians is just going to make them feel like failures.
If you want to get a sense of where men are, you're not going to get that from Olympians or Presidents, you're going to get it from the men who are not outrageously successful. Talk to hikikomoris, the dudes working dead end jobs, the dudes with neither intimacy nor friends (who vastly outnumber their single, friendless female peers in every age bracket).
Good point. Thanks. For additional context, I do also talk to/w regular dudes. My 4 sons are all regular joes under 30. I hope you find/have people around you who tell you and remind you how awesome you are. You don't need to be an Olympian to be a great guy.
I think we as a whole love hero narratives regardless of gender and age, and especially love them now as an alternative to a very complicated age where slaying technology has replaced dragons. I think it would be good to remind that, which I think is close to what you’re saying, that there are other characters in the hero’s journey like the sage and caregiver, if that makes sense.
Roy Bauermeister is another good one. He has a great book called ‘Is There Anything Good About Men?’ He looks at men’s positives from a psychological standpoint, being a psychologist himself.
Joyce Benenson is another, she has a book called ‘Warriors And Worriers’ and she looks at it from an evolutionary perspective and dismisses the notions that men aren’t social or communal when in fact men are very socially adept and communal on a large scale compared to women. For example men tend to be better at forming large social groups for war or hunting while women tend to be better at smaller social groups and 1-on-1 interactions. Also dismisses the notion that women aren’t agentic beings like men are, showing women are actually slightly more conscientious than men ON AVERAGE obviously and women have always been tasked with the more important job in humanity of raising children and ensuring they survive while men built the world as she says.
I like reading more academic lenses on these. Since scientists are less likely to fall into the sex war stuff and just look at it objectivity for research without demonising men or women.
Also, as the mom of a 12-year-old boy, I would deeply appreciate recommendations re: media (movies, TV, etc) centered on "friendship and relationship narratives" that my son might actually sit through. Ruth, is this something that you have explored?
On a side note, my son was never really into hero-type narratives. In fact, at the start of first grade, his favorite TV shows were Spirit Riding Free and Sophia the First (both very "girl"/relationship-oriented). But something shifted in him that year, and I could see him trying to get into more stereotypical male stuff- and never actually enjoying it. These days his media consumption revolves almost entirely around youtube, mostly sports-related. He's watched (and seemingly enjoyed) maybe a handful of movies and shows that offer nuanced portrayals of meaningful relationships. Happy to share these if that would be helpful.
Beautifully written and I really appreciate your analysis. At the same time, I feel so discouraged that a woman is doing this work (as usual) and that there’s no discussion of the root of all this: patriarchy that hails back to at least the first monotheistic religions.
What? There’s a ton of men talking about this. Richard Reeves book ‘Of Boys and Men’, there’s George ‘TheTinMen’ and Chris Williamson’s podcast often talks about men’s issues. So does Diary of a CEO by Steven Bartlett who talks about men’s struggles. Scott Galloway is another guy. Warren Farrell too back in the day and the list goes on. It’s not just women.
Maybe in the journalistic spaces you get more women writing articles about it but there’s a ton of men doing it too. They just aren’t writing articles.
What’d you mean by that in relation to this? (Honestly shocked you didn’t know some of those men who were already talking about this about 2 years ago).
Terrifically insightful as usual. I am thinking through a lot of these points as they relate to my own ignorance or genuine self-awareness. Right now I’m too busy trying to heroically get through the day to articulate my thoughts. But I hope to soon!
Hi Ruth! I’d love to be added to your discussion list if it hasn’t already taken place. Currently 60% through Boymom and finding it so fascinating and validating and all the things. Thank you! 🙏
This was such a stimulating read for me. Young men being more conservative than past generations has me overwhelmed. I agree that storytelling has engrained options into us. I’m obsessed with the hero/villain mother/whore take. I grew up with “messy” female protagonists in media in the 90s and am grateful for that. This is dovetailing with Sara Petersen’s Substack rant this morning about the male love interests in Emily Henry’s books. The archetypal men we center affects men themselves and those who love men. I’ve been thinking a ton about that lately. As my husband (and the love interest of my love stories) is a very different archetype. I’ve been calling it a ‘Columbo Masculinity’ lately. The hero/villain has a desire to exert their will on others, whereas the Columbo Man holds their power back. ANYWAYS. Ruth - you rock.. Thank you for this brilliant thinking.
Maybe things have changed, but when I was growing up as a millennial, team sports were always pitched as a way to learn and teach masculinity, perhaps as the paradigmatic example of masculinity. And obviously cooperation is a big part of team sports, and diligence and contributing to something bigger than yourself is part of that. From what I have read, what young men like to do while gaming is to get online and play cooperatively with their friends, going on missions and quests together. It just seems odd to me that masculinity is no longer associated with being a valued member of a group of men who work together towards common goals, and hold each other accountable and also support each other, when that seemed to me the cultures most agreed upon ideal of manhood. The HBO show “Band of Brothers” expresses that very clearly in the title. And there are almost too many sports movies to mention. Fraternities seem similar to me as well; they are very masculine/bro-ish, perhaps even to the point of camp at times. But it seems telling to me that the most masculine institution on campuses emphasizes men working together towards a common goal and not the primacy of the individual.
I like/appreciate your comparison of the Madonna/whore binary for women w hero/villain for men. You're right: we all need leeway to be messy humans. And I agree that we need to continue to expand the 'box' for boys. I'm also starting to think that far more boys & men are living beyond the hero/villain binary than we may think. You write about how the male hero journey is typically solo, w super powers of some sort, & women as side characters, if at all -- and how absorbing such stories subconsciously affects boys & men. But as I wrote in this week's edition of Building Boys Bulletin, this Olympics has been packed with examples of men cheering for & supporting women (& one another). Our boys are growing up in a time in which males ARE supporting the female friends & partners -- at a time when doing so is *not rare -- and that's a massive departure from the Gen X, Boomer, or previous generations' experiences. Yes, some boys & men are taking in & living out extreme messages. Many more are doing a pretty great job of navigating a pretty complex world.
yes this is an excellent point- thanks for raising it. When I was interviewing boys for Boymom I was often impressed by how - often in the face of pretty limiting and sometimes harmful socialization- they were finding their own paths and ways to show up and support each other.
So many lovely stories like this, and you are right that the Olympics is a great example.
I want to state upfront that I definitely appreciate your overall sentiment.
However, as a <30 y/o "regular joe", I think you'd be commiting the exact mistake Ruth brings up in her article if you make the claim that men are "getting beyond the hero/villain binary", using true real-life superheroes as evidence of that. Yeah, of course Olympians are going to be supportive of their teammates - they're literally at the top of the world and have objective proof of their adequacy.
As a "regular joe", the Olympics just depresses me; I already feel inadequate - those real-life "superhumans" might as well be from the goddamn Moon - I don't think there's any daylight between them & I.
Don't even get me started about how depressing the everpresent chatter about the "massive amounts of sex" Olympians have, given our ability to charm women is the primary way men are taught to value themselves. For the huge population of men who literally cannot find any partners in a decade (I certainly haven't), talking about Olympians is just going to make them feel like failures.
If you want to get a sense of where men are, you're not going to get that from Olympians or Presidents, you're going to get it from the men who are not outrageously successful. Talk to hikikomoris, the dudes working dead end jobs, the dudes with neither intimacy nor friends (who vastly outnumber their single, friendless female peers in every age bracket).
Good point. Thanks. For additional context, I do also talk to/w regular dudes. My 4 sons are all regular joes under 30. I hope you find/have people around you who tell you and remind you how awesome you are. You don't need to be an Olympian to be a great guy.
I think we as a whole love hero narratives regardless of gender and age, and especially love them now as an alternative to a very complicated age where slaying technology has replaced dragons. I think it would be good to remind that, which I think is close to what you’re saying, that there are other characters in the hero’s journey like the sage and caregiver, if that makes sense.
I think it was Warren Farrell who coined it as treating men as ‘Human-Doings’ rather than treating them as ‘Human-Beings’.
Roy Bauermeister is another good one. He has a great book called ‘Is There Anything Good About Men?’ He looks at men’s positives from a psychological standpoint, being a psychologist himself.
Joyce Benenson is another, she has a book called ‘Warriors And Worriers’ and she looks at it from an evolutionary perspective and dismisses the notions that men aren’t social or communal when in fact men are very socially adept and communal on a large scale compared to women. For example men tend to be better at forming large social groups for war or hunting while women tend to be better at smaller social groups and 1-on-1 interactions. Also dismisses the notion that women aren’t agentic beings like men are, showing women are actually slightly more conscientious than men ON AVERAGE obviously and women have always been tasked with the more important job in humanity of raising children and ensuring they survive while men built the world as she says.
I like reading more academic lenses on these. Since scientists are less likely to fall into the sex war stuff and just look at it objectivity for research without demonising men or women.
Hi. I’d love to be added to your list for discussion about boys and masculinity.
would be great to have you there! Added!
Please add me to the discussion list!
Also, as the mom of a 12-year-old boy, I would deeply appreciate recommendations re: media (movies, TV, etc) centered on "friendship and relationship narratives" that my son might actually sit through. Ruth, is this something that you have explored?
On a side note, my son was never really into hero-type narratives. In fact, at the start of first grade, his favorite TV shows were Spirit Riding Free and Sophia the First (both very "girl"/relationship-oriented). But something shifted in him that year, and I could see him trying to get into more stereotypical male stuff- and never actually enjoying it. These days his media consumption revolves almost entirely around youtube, mostly sports-related. He's watched (and seemingly enjoyed) maybe a handful of movies and shows that offer nuanced portrayals of meaningful relationships. Happy to share these if that would be helpful.
Beautifully written and I really appreciate your analysis. At the same time, I feel so discouraged that a woman is doing this work (as usual) and that there’s no discussion of the root of all this: patriarchy that hails back to at least the first monotheistic religions.
What? There’s a ton of men talking about this. Richard Reeves book ‘Of Boys and Men’, there’s George ‘TheTinMen’ and Chris Williamson’s podcast often talks about men’s issues. So does Diary of a CEO by Steven Bartlett who talks about men’s struggles. Scott Galloway is another guy. Warren Farrell too back in the day and the list goes on. It’s not just women.
Maybe in the journalistic spaces you get more women writing articles about it but there’s a ton of men doing it too. They just aren’t writing articles.
That’s good to know and very welcome as change usually comes from within.
What’d you mean by that in relation to this? (Honestly shocked you didn’t know some of those men who were already talking about this about 2 years ago).
Terrifically insightful as usual. I am thinking through a lot of these points as they relate to my own ignorance or genuine self-awareness. Right now I’m too busy trying to heroically get through the day to articulate my thoughts. But I hope to soon!
Oh thank you Peter- this is lovely. I was actually going to try to pitch you something related. Will do so soon. Hope you are well.
Hi there - would love to be added to the discussion group you mention above.
done!
Hi Ruth! I’d love to be added to your discussion list if it hasn’t already taken place. Currently 60% through Boymom and finding it so fascinating and validating and all the things. Thank you! 🙏
ah this is so lovely. thank you so much! will add you to the list!
This was such a stimulating read for me. Young men being more conservative than past generations has me overwhelmed. I agree that storytelling has engrained options into us. I’m obsessed with the hero/villain mother/whore take. I grew up with “messy” female protagonists in media in the 90s and am grateful for that. This is dovetailing with Sara Petersen’s Substack rant this morning about the male love interests in Emily Henry’s books. The archetypal men we center affects men themselves and those who love men. I’ve been thinking a ton about that lately. As my husband (and the love interest of my love stories) is a very different archetype. I’ve been calling it a ‘Columbo Masculinity’ lately. The hero/villain has a desire to exert their will on others, whereas the Columbo Man holds their power back. ANYWAYS. Ruth - you rock.. Thank you for this brilliant thinking.
ah thank you so much- this is lovely.
Hi! Would love to be added to the discussion group.
I’d also love to be added by the way. Forgot to leave a comment regarding that.
I'd love to be added, Ruth, if I may. I loved your essay. This rings very true for me.
oh thank you. Will definitely add you to the list.
Thank you.
Liberal women are the absolute last people on earth young men need to be listening too. In the future, please shut up
Maybe things have changed, but when I was growing up as a millennial, team sports were always pitched as a way to learn and teach masculinity, perhaps as the paradigmatic example of masculinity. And obviously cooperation is a big part of team sports, and diligence and contributing to something bigger than yourself is part of that. From what I have read, what young men like to do while gaming is to get online and play cooperatively with their friends, going on missions and quests together. It just seems odd to me that masculinity is no longer associated with being a valued member of a group of men who work together towards common goals, and hold each other accountable and also support each other, when that seemed to me the cultures most agreed upon ideal of manhood. The HBO show “Band of Brothers” expresses that very clearly in the title. And there are almost too many sports movies to mention. Fraternities seem similar to me as well; they are very masculine/bro-ish, perhaps even to the point of camp at times. But it seems telling to me that the most masculine institution on campuses emphasizes men working together towards a common goal and not the primacy of the individual.
They have deconsturcted male spaces.
This was written for you, Ruth:
https://alfafarfar.substack.com/p/well-meaning-feminist-moms-ruin-their